Reflection, Intention, and Resilience: The Deeper Meaning of the Built World on convo by design (ROST Architects Guest Feature)

Villa Beau Designed by ROST Architects - Referenced in Reflection, Intention, and Resilience: The Deeper Meaning of the Built World

Convo by Design Podcast

Josh: In the following, a thoughtful and far-reaching conversation, architect Mitch Rocheleau sits down with me to discuss the deeper layers of architecture, the critical importance of reflection and design, and the challenges and opportunities presented by rebuilding in the face of disaster. Throughout our exchange, Rocheleau consistently returns to one core belief: Architecture is not merely about aesthetics or function, but about the human experience. And I couldn't possibly agree more. Quote, I think architecture, if you study and reflect on it, write about it, think about it deeply, it can be in some ways a storybook, end quote. Mitch said this early in the conversation, and he also said, "You can read it and gain profound insights into the people that were building it," end quote, which is such a dynamic idea with regard to the storytelling of design and writing about design and architecture. Really important, and this conversation really goes into that.

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Josh: Mitch, I'm thrilled that you took the time to do this and as we get into this, the first thing I want you to know is I'm a fan for a couple of reasons. First is the work, and I wanna talk about the work in a little bit. But I actually wanna start with the writing. You do something that I wish more in the industry would do. And it's the actually, the writing and recording of your thoughts as they relate to the industry. You do a lot of you do a lot of deep dives. And, you know, for those who are listening, go to the show notes, and there will be a link to ROST Architects. And you can click on the writings, you can click on the podcast and watch Mitch do it live, or you can just go and read it yourself. But I feel like over the decades, there has been a, and for obvious reasons, right? Architectural critics, there aren't many of them left. You just don't hear about critical views of architecture, but in your writings, you really go deep. What does that do for you? Why do you do that?

Mitchell: Yeah, yeah. Well, first of all, yeah, thanks so much for having me, Josh. The reason I think, and I don't think this has started out as an intentional or conscious reason for doing this, but as it's developed and grown, I think the reason for doing that is a process of reflection. So there are many of us out there creating, doing work, putting things into the world, which is fantastic. But as I've gone through that process, begun to feel the intuition or this need to reflect and to say, okay, what am I actually doing? Where is this coming from? What is the work I'm putting into the world to gain a bit more or to have a bit more intention behind what I'm putting out there. I'd like to think that it's helping and working, but that's kind of, you know, where it started from. And I've always loved kind of reading these, you know, architectural philosophies from John Ruskin to you name it. And there seem to be a lot of reflection, especially in historical architecture. People going back and contemplating and looking at monuments and saying, OK, what was this civilization? What was this society like that was creating these monuments? What does the architecture say about these people?

I think architecture, if you study it and reflect on it, write about it, think about it, deeply can be, in some ways, a storybook that you can read and gain profound insights into the people that were building it. And just like we would reflect on our own past as a way to maybe go through a reflection period as an individual, I think we should do that as a collective society and as human beings on the earth in order to help us get a better compass or direction for how to proceed with architectural work in the future and say, okay, what are the best environments for people? What are the best environments for humanity? And so we're not just kind of unconsciously creating. I think there's a place for that, but so there's a bit more kind of thought, contemplation and intention behind the creative process.

Josh: Well I think it's important too. It's funny, a good friend of mine, Brian Pinkett of Landry Design Group, he and I were having a conversation about architecture and going to school for architecture and he told me something that has really stuck with me and that is “architecture school doesn't teach you how to design”, it teaches you how to think critically, you know, how to be a critical thinker about the work as you enter into it. And I wanted your take on this, but it feels to me like there's something that happens almost to disconnect, not everybody. And I don't throw a big blanket over the industry, but I think in large part there's a disconnect from the critical thinking of architecture school and being in the world working on the reality of architecture. And what you're talking about is almost like an owner's manual for the human existence and where we live and why we live there. I can relate it back to my coaching of club soccer. And John Wooden has his pyramid of success. And it's really interesting because these are all building blocks that lead to what makes not a successful athlete, but a successful person in the context of athletics. And when we look critically at architecture, you know, you can look at amazing architecture over time. And you can look at really horrible architecture over time. And it seems to be, again, that disconnect because anti -social media just puts out vits and pieces, but it doesn't really cover it. And we're talking about this because you and I had some conversations about, especially now in Southern California, when you have this huge event, this disruption, where you're gonna have literally thousands of new builds being rebuilt in Southern the due to the wildfires, and it's going to, it's going to change the nature of the way people live, the way neighborhoods function, the way things operate. And you kind of have to look at that and evaluate it to do it smartly, right? And I feel like the writings that you do kind of set the example you cover, you cover philosophy, you cover psychology, and all of that goes into and the backstories. I love the backstories. We were talking about Contemplations of the Built World, the Farnsworth project. And give me your perspective on that. I mean, you don't have to read it, but I love the article that you wrote back in January. And I'm curious what your motivation for that was.

Mitchell: The article specifically?

Josh: Specifically that one because I want to get into a lot of the other psychology, but you look at the back story and telling the story I mean, this could be a TV show.

Mitchell: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's certainly enough drama in it to be a TV show, right? I want to touch on a point that you said that and earlier and then that will kind of bring me into your question on the Farnsworth house, but your comment on you know, so what people are learning in schools and maybe what's happening in the real world. It seems to me that there may be in the path of architecture there's kind of a you know a primary path and then along the way there's a series of possibly distractions and I think those distractions come in the form of maybe trendy things of the day, softwares, um scripting, rendering, formal agendas, these types of things, which aren't bad, there's definitely places for those and they're beautiful in their own right. I think the trouble comes is when you bring maybe a young person or a student down that path and they diverge too deeply under one of those paths and kind of lose that, you know, cardinal direction of what at least I intuitively feel that architecture is really about, and I know there's plenty of people that would disagree with that intuition and have other perspectives, and I think that's fantastic. But from my perspective, it's about the people, the human experience, and that would probably explain your comment on why the writing dives into these maybe deeply human topics such as psychology, philosophy because I think it all, at its essence, can come back to the idea of the human and what's going on in the human's mind and as we're walking through space, what's happening to them.

But as we go into the Farnsworth House, your comment on, or your question on the Farnsworth House, it was that idea about maybe the human experience that prompted the writing of this article. You know, not only I think is the house beautiful as an artifact and an object. And yeah, there's great drama behind the story and lawsuits and conflict and all that. Everything that gets everybody excited now. There's all of that. But I think there was this really maybe sensitive approach from Mies Van der Rohe, the architect about the human experience, which is a strange thing, because I think he often doesn't really get credit for that type of thinking. But if you dive deeper into the history of the house and the way he thought, there is a very human element to it. He'll often be associated with hypermodernism, the object, this purity of form and you know function that type of thing, it'll often be associated like that on the surface, but the Farmsworth house to me kind of exhibits this real sensitivity to the human experience and the connection with the landscape and this new way of living that he and among others you know in that in that time period are kind of introducing to the world, the field of architecture, this new form of what a home can look like, which is greatly or is massively freeing to me to be able to think like, OK, that's a possible to live that way. So that's kind of what prompted the love of that home and the writing of that article.

Josh: And another one that you covered and I found myself drawn to this one, too was urban and architectural history of Venice, Italy. Right. And I think that leads us into our conversation about Los Angeles in general, but this idea of rebuilding post-disaster, you think about Venice, first of all, it could not be a more ill-suited environment to build a city. Right. Right? But then you have certain intricacies about Venice and in particular the Venetian chimneys, right? So you've got a city that is so incredibly densely packed that it winds up catching fire all the time because the chimneys, so you have these artisans who create the Venetian chimney, which is actually used as both artist, artistic piece, architectural detail, and spark arrester. Just, it's so easy. It's so simple. It's such a simple thought. Yet you have this city that by all intent purposes should not actually be a city. It shouldn't exist.

Mitchell: Yeah. Yeah, it's funny when the emergence of Venice comes and certain innovations like you're talking about, it's usually this confluence of this beautiful art and some necessity, you know, somebody, somebody's in a challenging place and they're problem solving and thinking of creative ways to address a problem. And, and out of this, you know, the confluence of those emerges these beautiful innovations. And the city of Venice as an urban artifact is just this like the epitome of that in my opinion. I mean, it's this beautiful object that came out of the challenge of escaping the mainland in Italy, coming to a place where they were safe, and then just building what they could. And it created something so unique. And that make, create and develop these unique features of the city without those challenges, that city would not be what it is today. And I kind of state in the article that an urban planner or an architect with this big broad pencil can plans but what's but those in some ways you know there's beauty in that but there's also a bit of hollowness because there's not that friction that the challenge is behind that that help to create adversity that people need to overcome and to create something beautiful to kind of make something flower and that's what Venice did and it speaks for itself. I mean, we don't need to go into how amazing the place is and how many people it attracts. It just, it does its own work.

Josh: It's a specimen for sure. But it's interesting too, because when you think about a living, breathing city, like anything else, there's a birth, there's a life, there's a death and cut to Los Angeles. I think that Southern California is kind of on the tip of a pin right now as far as if LA thrives and survives or if it goes the way of other cities that have not stood the test of time. So well, I mean, I'm a native Angelino, I grew up in LA, I grew up in the San Fernando Valley, I was a teenager in the 80s, and I've told this story before, I think I may have told you, so forgive me if I'm telling it again for the audience who's probably heard it no less than five times already. But it was 1983, I had just gotten home from a Pop Warner football game. I was wearing board shorts and cowboy boots. I was on a horse for 23 hours because by the time we smelled the smoke, it was already too late, no computers, no cell phones, no Wi-Fi, no internet, no social media. So by the time we smelled the smoke, it was on the horses and we're out 23 hours on the back of a horse, not knowing if I had a house that was still there. Not being able to see beyond 5 or 10 feet in front of your face, not being able to breathe because with the bandanas, you know, you kept getting them wet but after a while, the soot was so thick on the bandanas that you just couldn't breathe anymore. The burnt umber color, I will never forget. The acrid smoke, I will never forget. And then there was the rebuilding process. You know, thankfully our house was still there but we were fortunate. Which, what happened recently, Santa Ana's haven't changed. Climate change has, has changed a lot of things as far as, you know, when rainfall comes and when the winds kick in and, but it's not different. It's still the same basic principles that Southern California has always had to deal with. The difference now is Southern California is so much denser than it used to be. The building of infill projects. I mean, are you from LA? Are you in there?

Mitchell: No, I've lived in LA for a while and but not originally from there.

Josh: Yeah, but it's interesting to just see how dense everything has gotten. And the one thing that I think you and I spoke about that really irritates me, is when people come out and talk about build back better, like an executive order that Karen Bass, Mayor Bass, signed, that authorizes building back up to 110 % of the livable space. It's like, wait a minute. We don't need to be building back denser. We need to be building back smarter. And I think you have some thoughts on that as well.

Mitchell: Yeah, yeah, I would say it's a it's a challenging situation because Yeah, not only are there so many variables involved from governmental variables, technical variables, disaster variables, but you're talking about a large area of.. a neighborhood where people are out of their homes, you know, and a lot of the intuition is, well, we have to get these people back into their homes as soon as possible, and yes, that makes total sense. But along with that kind of, and I would want these people to have their home, but don't get me wrong, back as soon as possible. But along with that, and this implies the challenge, is this maybe impulse to be hasty to rebuild and just kind of put out some basic parameters and rebuild and I think there's great risk at that, that maybe we need to be a little bit more contemplative about and do a little bit more reflection and say, okay, what really is the best way to rebuild this space. And in terms of quality in terms of what are the values of the community in terms of infrastructure and how can this thing, like you said, if rebuilt, how can it contribute to the community of LA rather than being rebuilt and becoming just another kind of swath of the urban fabric that maybe doesn't positively contribute to the community? And that's such a tall order. I mean, I'm being very realistic right now and it's probably unreasonable, given the scenario and the variables at hand. But in a perfect world, I would just want there to be some real deep intuition, deep conversations and discussion about the best way to rebuild that area for the community, for the people that live there. And yeah, yeah, my intuition says it maybe doesn't look like the old neighborhood that it did look like. There's different components to it, but that's the depth of my thought on it at the moment. It's a tough situation.

Josh: Well, and it's interesting too, I think that there is a desire not necessarily to build but to but to build back faster. Yeah. And to just move on and put that behind us and move forward. And I get that. But it's interesting because Southern California, specifically Los Angeles, Los Angeles County, is so unique. And it's so interesting, you know, people who come from other states don't really understand LA until you get there and you see it to understand that LA is not one city. LA is like 47 boroughs. And each borough is unique unto itself. And then you have what many will call iconic properties, iconic structures. And there's this overwhelming desire to save all of them by one half. And then the other half is like, no, we want to move forward and do new things. And I feel like you're the perfect person to talk to about this. Because as I look at the projects that you've done, there's one, in particular, an Eichler restoration. And I'd love for you to talk about that a little bit. But in the context of:  What makes something worth saving versus looking at a changing environment? Los Angeles is a different environment now than it was when I was a kid, when I was a teenager or even 10 or 15 years ago. I think people think a city like that is just going to remain the same, but nothing stays the same, it's always changing.

Mitchell: Yeah, yeah, thank you for looking at that Eichler project. We've since done two or worked on two other Eichlers, which are not up on the website, but I love working on those properties. To answer your question about kind of what makes those properties, let's say significant, I think is kind of where you were heading. In my mind, it's, and this goes not only for homes, but this is for architecture in general, I think when somebody, at least when I identify a piece of architecture as significant or something, there's something that resonates me. It's typically not always, but it typically has something to do with signaling or monumentalizing a change in thought or a, let's call it a shift in thought in the people, the community that built it. Okay, so like, what the Eichler's doing, they're among a large swath or large group of other, you know, modern projects that exhibit these qualities, but they specifically do this. They exhibited a change in thought that was brewing in kind of the midcentury era, And that change in thought is can a suburban home that was typically, you know, punch windows, you know, wood framed, it was an enclosure, it had, you know, detailing on it like a whatever kind of style you want to apply to it. And it was that. And the Eichler thought of that in in a new way. Eichler, the developer, thought of that in a new way. He hired architects to help him develop this vision. The homes that we worked on, two of them were from A. Quincy Jones, which was a fantastic architect. And to my understanding, kind of really helped him kind of develop and fine tune this vision. But it was a shift in the way that people live. So he introduced that central courtyard in a lot of his designs, this real interior to exterior flow. That was a couple of the more kind of philosophical things, design related things that he implemented. But then he also had innovations in the way he constructed the homes, the post and beam construction, which helped expedite the buildings. It provided a kind of systematized way for him to, let's say, make the economic component of his business flourish. So he did a couple things that I think really monumentalized or identify a shift in the architectural industry and in the way that people live. And they're met, like I said, when buildings do that, they tend to kind of cement their place in history and people go to them because they're saying, "Wow, I mean, that was really a..." And to put it in a different way, it's kind of a change in consciousness or a change in the level of like the depth of thought that which people are thinking about at the time. And I could go on about the different monuments that do that in history. but that's what the Eichler's do in my view.

Josh: And it's interesting to me too, because those same people who would say, well, that's an Eichler, you have to save it. You have to, it has to be preserved. It has to be saved and it has to, which is great, because these are examples of extraordinary architecture. At the same time, Eichler, early on in the, in the tract home development of Southern California and he was part of that and those same people you'd say well tract homes and they would just recoil. Right? At the idea of tract homes. But if you think about it, that concept of the tract home, now not all of everything is going to be good, but there are samples and examples. And I think it's interesting when you talk about building back and mass. You know, we have probably the greatest opportunity since World War II to define and design what the next three or four generations of Angelinos will be experiencing. This is an opportunity to not just experiment, but to take what we've learned, what we know that works, adding new elements to it, and a lot of your work, would you call yourself a modernist?

Mitchell: That's a tricky question.

Josh: I know, right?

Mitchell: That's a ground filled with a lot of landmines, too.

Josh: It is.

Mitchell: Like, architectural historians and that. And it's tough. I usually say, I don't like to kind of pigeonhole or identify myself stylistically. But yes, a lot of the work has a language of modernism in it. And that's maybe from just a personal, let's say aesthetic preference. But I think it also, there were some real tenets of modernism that I think had some just some real truth and touched on the essence of what I think architecture is really about, that we try to kind of, you know, communicate in our work or use in our work. So, I wouldn't call myself a modernist, but I would say that, you know, there's a strong affiliation and there's a strong interest and admiration for that work. But there along inside of that work, there are also concepts, ideas, philosophies, land elements of architecture through the ages, you know, going back to a long way that are maybe more subtly incorporated into the work, but it signifies on the surface, maybe some modern, modern tendencies, I guess.

Josh: Well, and it's funny because I asked the question, not to pigeonhole you.

Mitchell: Yeah.

Josh: But something that you had mentioned about the language of architecture. I think there have been so many different dialects on the language of architecture that it gets confusing. Yeah. And in the absence of architecture critics, like one of my favorite things about architectural criticism is a knowledgeable understanding of the language and being able to translate the language into modern terms, not modern being style, but modern contemporary terms, and to be able to take those terms and explain why in their educated opinion it works or it doesn't work, it's not as functionally, it's not as functional as it could be or should be, yet instead you'll just see it, one image on social media or you'll see a video on social media. I'll give you an example. So, I'm in Tulsa and I went to Bartlesville to visit the Price Tower. And there were a couple of things, like if you look at Price Tower from the outside, you can understand Frank Lloyd Wright's storytelling and the language of that structure and how he wanted to tell a story about nature. It's amazing. When you get into the building, my personal experience was, and I know it's sacrilege to criticize in any way, shape, or form the masters and the greats, right? But look, he had this vision and this view, the hallways are small, the kitchens in the residences were miniscule and it took away the experience of living there while you would have a small apartment with 20 foot, with a 20 foot expanse of windows which is amazing. The rooms where you were actually spending time to work were not fun. One example, Mr. Price's secretary. So it's on the 19th floor, top floor of the building. And you know Frank Lloyd Wright and Glass, right? Loves it. And you go into Mr. Price's office and it's floor to ceiling. It's amazing. You step out of the office to where his executive assistant, to where his secretary would work. And off to her right, or so the way that the area was situated is she's looking straight ahead at her typewriter, off to the right, would have been a floor-to-ceiling expanse of windows. But no, Wright decided to build a half wall that went up to about five feet, just so that when she was sitting there doing her work, she couldn't look out the window. Not cool.

Mitchell: Yeah, yeah, I think a lot of, well, Some of those things are firmly rooted in some of the you know past ideas that people have had which I've hoped we have transcended at the moment, but certainly you can find those things in architecture. Yeah.

Josh: Yeah 100 % and I think that that you know sometimes it's an ideological view sometimes it's cost -cutting sometimes it's dealing with rules and restrictions and things that you have to do with. Personal view, as we look at California in general, Southern California in particular, rebuilding between Title 24 and building codes and restrictions placed on what designers can do and how they can do it, juxtaposed against this need to just go fast and get things rebuilt. You're basically asking for history to repeat itself. So, I'm curious, if you had the ear of Mayor Bass or whoever follows her, what would you tell them about, your point of view, about how to approach this idea of building smartly rather than better, which is just code for faster.

Mitchell: Ooh, that would be something that, well, the opportunity would be amazing. I'm trying to envision myself in that scenario. I'd probably stutter a little bit and wouldn't know what to say but, you know, I think what I would probably suggest or just kind of without having kind of a fully fledged laid out plan is to really focus on what is the master plan of that area look like or what the purpose of that area, how does it positively contribute to building community? And I don't mean that like on a very superficial level. I know that's kind of a kitschy cliche answer, but really like how does the architecture in the layout of the streets, facilitate people coming together, interactions between people, between neighbors, instead of isolating, and instead of isolating people, instead of… privacy is fantastic, but I think there's with urban neighborhoods let's say there's a real it's been over indexed the idea of privacy and we just create such isolation in these neighborhoods, is there a way that we can infuse you know more community spaces green spaces and that comes out at the sacrifice maybe of some land or whatever it may be. Also, in a strange way, I would maybe not be explicit in saying this, but I think it's worth just the question. The presence of the automobile in some of these communities is that we should question that. And the reason I say that is I've done a good amount of studying on maybe European cities, countries that have reassessed the presence of the automobile in their cities, in their communities, and have seen such positive impacts. Now, in regards to LA, I don't know what that looks like. And some people may say, you're crazy, you know, we just, our city is just built on the automobile, which is, I mean, the urban fabric is all about the automobile. But I think it's worth just contemplating and asking the question how can maybe we look at cities such as Copenhagen, which has had fantastic success in reducing the presence and just by hair of the automobile. They haven't completely eradicated it, that's again idealistic, but how have they reduced the severity of it and its presence just a hair, to promote walking, to promote community engagement. Those are some of the more idealistic things I would probably say. And again, there's no plan or that's the depth of the level of thought on that. But that's kind of where my intuition takes me in regards to the Palisades.

Josh: You're listening to my conversation with Mitch Rocheleau of Rost Architects. We will be right back.

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Josh: Well and it's interesting too because you know I'm back to your work and an example of your work. Where is the Beau project located?

Mitchell: Yeah, that was a project. That was a specular project in Dana Point, and it did not get built, but that was done in Dana Point. And that was one of the early projects that we worked on and died a quick death, let's say.

Josh: Well, I'm sorry. I apologize.

Mitchell: No, no, no.

Josh: But I like it very much. It's kind of like this, this comforting, brutalist environment with plenty of glass and I'm looking at native grasses, I'm looking at water features, I'm looking at a hardened enclosure yet one that doesn't cut off life. It's funny because nowadays I find myself looking at projects and evaluating them, not just isolated, but where they are and how that the environment of where they're located affects how the structure performs, right? And this particular project, and there are others I want to bring up, but this one in particular is really interesting because the way that it's an open space, yet there's privacy. It is a hard facade, yet it's softened by natural grasses and native species. There's water features, there's, in other words, it's a fully functional envelope that is crafted for anything that you can throw at it, but it's also soft enough that that makes for an incredible living environment.

Mitchell: Yeah, yeah, thank you for recognizing those features of it. There's a feature in the project that is kind of played out through a lot of the work. But in that one specifically, there's this idea of the pavilion and there's a project in Corona Del Mar that maybe exemplifies this as well. But there's this idea of the pavilion that runs through the work. And so the pavilion in my mind is kind of this idea that on the first level, where people congregate, join together, have events. There's this idea that can this be true outdoor space when you're inside of the home, right? So, I've always been fascinated about like indoor outdoor spaces. I grew up in kind of Central Texas and remember as a kid being in these vast expansive landscapes and beautiful landscapes and just thinking this is this is it right here. So this idea to deeply integrate and bring the landscape through the work is so ingrained in a lot of the projects. And with Beau and with, there's an Orchid Project in Corona Del Mar, what we wanted to do is open up or be able to remove, let's say via pocket doors, sliding glass, whatever it may be, all of the glass enclosures on the primary level so that your secondary spaces, your private spaces are, you know, upstairs in the second level, but when all of the glasses pocketed all of the sliding doors are open, you have a pavilion you have an open air pavilion, and you feel in those Sunday afternoons Saturday afternoons when you're out in those spaces, you are outside, because everything is, glass is hidden, and you feel like you're in the landscape, you're integrated in this landscape, and you can't really tell whether you're inside or outside. I love this idea because you're sheltered from above, but you're just getting the natural cool breezes through the home. You're in the landscape, and your eye is taken out to the horizon. And yeah, that's me romanticizing it, but that idea runs through the work, and you'll find in many of the projects, if you study the floor plans, we often attempt our best to do that. It doesn't always work, but we attempt that.

Josh: Interesting. So I remember what you're describing is how I felt the first time I toured the Neutra VDL house in Silver Lake, because what Neutra was attempting to do was to take roof space and actually fill them with water so that when you're, and there's a whole nautical theme to that particular structure, you know, and when you're looking out from Dione's room over to, you know, the Silver Lake and you're seeing water on the property, it's an illusion that's just spectacular, but to your point, it expands the view and it plays tricks with the outdoors in, indoors out. And there's something about, and I've noticed this too in a lot of your work, there's something too about, and I don't wanna call it tricking the eye or, but it kind of is like, you know how if you're really hot, but you're looking, they've done studies about this. If you're really hot, but you're looking at images of ice cubes, you know, it actually makes you feel cooler, which is just kind of a fascinating idea, right? And that you could do the same thing with architecture that if you're in a dense environment, but you find a way to make it look as if there are more wide open views and spaces, you make it highly performative in ways that you can't put on a blueprint.

Mitchell: That's exactly right. Yeah, and the connection that your eye establishes with landscape is so underrated. If you can do that in a project, even on these small lots, if you can do that on a project, you make these spaces feel so expansive, and you evoke a sense of kind of freedom in people walking through the spaces. I have one short story. I'll give you the 60-second version of it related to the VDL house because I have such good memories of it but I took a tour of the VDL house with my professor Barton Myers and when I was at UCLA and he was fortunate to have Raymond Neutra, the son of Richard Neutra come and kind of give us the tour and so I remember sitting up by the pond on the roof deck and Barton and Raymond were talking and he was telling us stories of how he would come in at night and see his father drafting, you know, until 11, 12 o 'clock at night and how he remembers living in that home and what a pleasure it was to live in that space and the sense of freedom he had and everything. So, really fond memories of that house. But I digress.

Josh: And by the way the one thing that I will also say is the Neutra VDL house is spectacular. It's really a phenomenal specimen. It's not perfect.

Mitchell: Yeah.

Josh: Oh, it's not. There were certain things that they did like Indiana's room. I remember this nautical theme where the bed was on a was on a it would pivot because the room was so small that if you wanted to make the bed, You'd have a really hard time doing it so they made it so that it was on a pivot so you could bring it away from the wall tuck the sheets in and then push it back to the wall. But it wouldn't, it wasn't freestanding so you couldn't just pull it out of the room, it was just on a on a pivot so, genius. The kitchen it is a, it is a small space while it's opened to the living room, it's dysfunctional, personal opinion. You know, it's got a hard base for the ostrizer, right? Who uses that anymore? It just, there wasn't a lot of thought put into the future of how that particular kitchen would perform. And there's really nothing you can do to enlarge it. But it's a great example in a time capsule of what the idea was at the time. Yeah, yeah, I think it seems like a lot of these modern projects have these awkward spaces and kind of strange proportions and dimensions are odd and too small and tight. And it seems to me that they were kind of still grappling with or negotiating you know modern life, many of these appliances were new and they were, you know, how much space should be in between the counter and the other counter if I pull down the oven, which is brand new and I've never used before, you know, these types of things. And I think it was, it was Neutra, one of those modern architect, modern architects said in mid -century, they said, you know, you can, I'm butchering this, but you can cause so many small, maybe anxieties or discomforts in people's daily life that it often will end up in divorce between the two couples if like in a kitchen or something. I'm totally butchering it, but you get my point. And I think they were still grappling with all these proportions and dimensions of things. So that's what I'd like to believe was the impetus for those strange spaces.

Josh: Yeah, and somehow they managed to fit an elevator into the kitchen, which, again, okay. I do love that project though, I really do. Last project of yours that I kind of wanted to visit takes us back to the start, and that's Rim Rock. Yeah. And that reminds me, when I saw that for the first time, I had yeah, I was it kind of it just kind of reminded me now. Is this an ADU?

Mitchell: That's an ADU. Yep, yeah, so it's you know small living prototype in kind of our series of ADU prototypes that we have done in the office. One because I've you know seen such a large demand for those obviously because the new legislation coming around but all too I'm just I love this idea of kind of smaller living, and I've been fortunate to work on lots of large houses, which are great and fantastic, but I also have this just love for smaller spaces and living in a humble, modest way. I love that concept. I think what it does is allow you, if designed properly and, you know, landscape incorporated properly, it can still allow you to kind of the freedom perception, just like we're talking about of the expansive space and you can have enough room, but it reduces the amount of objects you bring into your life. It reduces the amount of cleaning you have to do things you have to manage. Maybe let's say financial burden you have to take on for a large home so you're not having a walking around with a massive construction loan or home mortgage on your back all day long. I mean, that psychic weight of that builds up and stay with you. And I think what a small living or a small home like that does, it's not for everybody, but what it could do is reduce or remove a lot of those things. So people are free to maybe focus on more important things that they deem important themselves, activities, times with family, all of that. So, I think I am sensing a bit of a shift too in that way that people are let's say the the, um, this kind of impulse to build bigger and build these massive homes and stuff. It's great for some people, but there's a reconsideration or just at least a pause and a, “Hey, is this the right thing to do?” Um, or am I just trying to do this to maybe, um, you know, impress my neighbor or something like that. And some people genuinely, you know, want it need it. They're going to use it for certain spaces in which that's great. But, um, um, people are just, there, there's not that. There's not that bigger is better. Just, uh, acceptance without thought anymore. It seems like.

Josh: Well, cause bigger isn't always better. Bigger is bigger, you know? And this idea though, like I could see someone saying that Rim Rock structure on a 10 acre parcel out in the woods. And that's the, I could live there. I could be completely happy.

Mitchell: Absolutely. Yeah. If you're integrating the landscape and you open the doors, somehow your whole... Yeah, your landscape is your living room. Yeah, thank you for noticing that.

Josh: So listen this, Mitch, this was, this was fun. This was really great. My hope is that we can do this again and we can continue this conversation because I have a I have a great appreciation if you couldn't tell for the work, but also for the for the thought and the thought that you've put behind. You know, clearly you're a serious guy who takes your work seriously and in writing about it and the why behind it, I think is important because it's also part of that giving back, you know, so that other people can study your work and find out why you did what you did and what the thought was behind it. And I think you have done that in exceptional fashion. So, thanks for taking the time to talk to me today and I would love to do this again in the future.

Mitchell: Yeah, absolutely. I can't believe, you know, we've already gone through this time, but yes, let's have another conversation for sure.

Josh: Outstanding.

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Thank you, Mitch. Amazing conversation. Truly appreciate the time.

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